Week 4 – Italy to Greece

Sunday 21st to Sunday 28th April

Gallipoli – Brindisi – Igoumenitsa – Kalambaka – Menidi – Proastio

SUNDAY 21/04/19 – RIDE DAY: Matera to Gallipoli; 195klms

Easter Sunday and southern Italy was as quiet as the tomb as we headed east to try and find a trullo (plural, trulli) which is a traditional Apulian dry stone hut with a conical roof. Their style of construction is specific to the Itria Valley, in the Murge area of the Italian region of Apulia. I was thinking they’d be few and far between because we were entering the region via a very different route from the norm, which is our norm. But believe me they are everywhere, and in all states of form and repair.

So ticked that off the tourist list and turned towards the inside of the heel of Italy’s boot where we followed the coast all the way to  Gallipoli. A fairly uneventful ride only broken by a coffee break in a one church town, and nothing else, just before we hit the coast.

Then stopped at a small village for lunch.

We arrived at our very pleasant accommodation late in the afternoon and took a wander along the waterfront.

Day 09 195k

MONDAY 22/04/19 – RIDE DAY: Gallipoli to Brindisi; 205klms

After a simple breakfast and a tussle with TomTom not wanting to work properly we headed off. The problem turned out to be an issue with the location services on my phone.

On a glorious day we headed south and then north east along the coast. Yesterday there’d hardly been anyone on the road, today everyone was out and about and driving like no one else was on the road.  It was an uneventful ride only broken by an occasional stop.

This stop in a tiny harbour where the Guzzi got its fair share of attention, as did its crazy owners “all the way from Australia?” It is a little odd that in the country where Moto Guzzis are built there are very few of them about, I’ve only seen 3 others in Italy, and even fewer elsewhere.

We arrived in Brindisi to find our accommodation had been changed without the owner bothering to inform us nor caring that we spent an hour trying to contact him. Sadly it’s this attitude to service that will condemn these countries to poverty. Generally we’ve found very good service but the opposite can also be true which is very foreign to us and odd for countries that rely almost entirely on tourism for their income. I expect some would disagree with that.

Anyway, sorted that and took a look around town a bit.

Tomorrow we head for Greece.

Day 10 205k

TUESDAY 23/04/19 – LAY DAY: Ferry Brindisi to Igoumenitsa

There’d been an amazing amount of dust fallout during a few showers overnight, apparently from Africa, so everything was covered in it. I washed the Guzzi and we headed for the port where we lined up to board the ferry for Greece.

It was blowing quite hard on the trip over and I was a little concerned for the bike but the deck crew had lashed it down very well. We met a lovely couple from Northern Italy, Roberto and Bruno and had a great time discussing common interests.

We arrived in the port of Igoumenitsa around 10pm and found our hotel.

WEDNESDAY 24/04/19 – RIDE DAY: Igoumenitsa to Kalambaka; 225klms

After a sumptuous Greek breakfast provided by our most excellent host we headed east for the Greek mountains and the famous monasteries of Meteora. It pays to be vigilant on the back roads as there are livestock all over the place. Some are tended by traditional old shepherds, and some by dogs, but the cattle just roam.

The monument is in a little village called Zitsa. Some friends of ours in Australia are descendant from this village and seeing as it was only 10klms off our route we thought we’d take a look.

There was quite a bit of snow on the peaks as we stopped on the lake in Ioaninna and had a look around, came back to the bike and met Chris and Ellie, who’d pulled up on a BMW 650GS and were discussing the Guzzi. The story continues below.

These guys above are Chris, Penny, Elle and Billy.

We pull up and he realizes we own the bike. Me, ‘Sorry mate, we’re from Australia so no Greek’ Him in an Aussie accent ‘What, where from in Aus?’ Me, ‘West Sunshine in Melbourne’ Him, ‘I was born in Footscray hospital and went to school in Sunshine’ What a rave. Hilarious. And he’s a Guzzi nut. Anyway we had to go to his place to meet his wife. We had a fantastic time with them for a couple of hours then headed off for Kalambaka. Turned out to be a great day.

Day 11 225k

THURSDAY 25/04/19 – LAY DAY: Kalambaka

Today we threaded  and diced with the stream of tourist buses and cars jostling for parking as we visited the famous  Monasteries of Meteora. There’s one thing for riding a motorcycle; queues are for mugs.

These things are pretty spectacular perched high up on their limestone columns. We joined the crowds. It’s a pity it was such a hazy day as the snow on the mountains in the back ground looked amazing but can’t be seen in these pics, which themselves aren’t as sharp they’d normally be because of the haze.

FRIDAY 26/04/19 – RIDE DAY: Kalambaka to Menidi; 185klms

Good Friday in the Greek religious calendar and although this was only 185klms it was a long slow day and therefore quite tiring as a good 150klms of it was non stop twisties and or hairpins which in itself is no big deal except for the fact that they’re up and over and down what seemed like a never ending series of ranges. With snow all around on the higher peaks the views were quite spectacular as we made our way to Menidi which is a little fishing village that has discovered and embraced tourism in a big way.

This was a very nice place for a stop and we witnessed the local vigil procession of what must have been everyone in town, carrying candles in the expectation of Christ’s resurrection.

Day 12 185k

SATURDAY 27/04/19 – RIDE DAY: Menidi to Proastio (Patras); 185klms

This ride was very much the same as yesterday in every way, although it needn’t have been as there’s a freeway the whole way. But that’s boring hey.

Finally got back down to sea level at Nafpaktos where we took a long break.

Before crossing the Rio–Antirrio Bridge which is one of the world’s longest multi-span cable-stayed bridges and longest of the fully suspended type. It crosses the Gulf of Corinth near Patras which is where we’re staying right now in a lovely, yet isolated, upmarket hotel with the sea at our doorstep and the snow covered mountains behind.

Day 13 185k

SUNDAY 28/04/19 – LAY DAY: Proastio

Resurrection Sunday and last night we joined the throng of locals as they walked to their local Church to celebrate the Risen Christ. We didn’t understand a word of it but it was a wonderful thing to do to join the crowd as at midnight candles were lit and crackers ignited in celebration of the greatest thing the world has ever seen. Today we’ll join them for lunch over spit lamb and local Greek cuisine. Love it.



Week 3 – Travelers in Italy – Pt2

Sunday 14th to Saturday 20th April

Pozzallo – Taormina – Tropea – Sila N.P. – Matera

Sunday 14/04/19 – Ride Day: Agrigento to Pozzallo 165klms

Palm Sunday and we were woken to the sound of Agrigento’s Church bells heralding the coming King. We packed our gear and enjoyed the most amazing breakfast in glorious sunshine on the rooftop of our BnB. No wets today even though it was a little overcast and the sun eventually came out.

We leisurely tracked south and east as we followed the coastal road, detouring into the small seaside towns on the way. We stopped in Gela for coffee and hit the lunchtime crowd promenading along the waterfront. We also picked the cafe where anyone who thought they were anyone congregated. It didn’t take long before the Guzzi gathered it’s own crowd.

We arrived in Pozzallo without incident and relaxed for an hour before joining the Sunday evening crowd on what seems to be a national pastime of sauntering the main street and eating icecream – can’t say we disapprove. We’re trying to restrict our icecream intake to Fridays, but our BnB host directed us to a Gelatino where apparently everyday is a Friday. Well done.

Day 04

Monday 15/04/19 – Ride Day: Pozzallo to Taormina 185klms

I washed the Guzzi this morning – it certainly needed it, dirty Italian beauties are not a good look.

After another lovely breakfast we headed north on the SS194. We were on a mission today to visit the towns where our daughter in law Gabby’s descendents came from.  First was the hilltop town of Monterosso Almo where her mother’s mother was raised prior to emigrating to Australia.

Then just north and the very next hilltop town is Vizzini where her Dad,  Agostini Lo Giudice, was raised before emigrating to Australia.

We had a look around and negotiated the narrow cobbled streets at our peril.

It was then onto Taormina. Somehow I’d instructed TomTom to ‘avoid motorways’ which was a bad move as it took us through every back street it could find on our way up the coast. We found a quiet cafe, had some lunch, and sorted TomTom out. But she had the last laugh by getting confused and lost through Taormina’s one way streets 😲😨 We finally found our apartment which was one street off the main drag with parking right at the door, literally.

This type of issue is the only fault I have with TomTom Go Mobile, that it can get confused like this right when we don’t need it, so from now on I’ll check it against Goggle Maps for the final approach to our accommodation.

Day 05

Tuesday 16/04/19 – Lay Day: Taormina

Taormina is a very interesting place with a history going back to before 750BC.

We did what tourists do – we wandered and took photos.

There must have been a never ending stream of buses running up and down the hill as there were dozens of tourist groups thronging every area of town.

We visited the local gardens which appeared to enjoy the only level piece of acreage in the whole town.  Taormina is also famous for its Greek and Roman ruins which are generally overrun with tourists, yet we came across this Roman Odeon constructed in 21 BC for small performances frequented by the local Roman elite and there was no-one else there.

I washed the Guzzi again.

Wednesday 17/04/19 – Ride Day: Taormina to Tropea 165klms

Up early and on the road with a run up the freeway to  Messina where we took a short ferry ride across the strait to the Italian mainland.

We then hugged the western coast as we passed through a number of coastal and hilltop towns, (check the viaduct – they’re everywhere)

arriving at our lovely accommodation in Tropea in the mid afternoon.

We had a wander around town which was surprisingly quiet but we were assured it would be wall to wall people in the summer with virtually standing room only on its very popular beaches.

Day 06

Thursday 18/04/19 – Ride Day: Tropea to Acri via Sila N.P. 245klms

After a sumptuous Italian breakfast we were on the road. North up the coast for a ways before cutting east towards Cartanzaro then north for 100klms through Sila National Park.

This was a very pleasant ride although the roads left a bit to be desired at times. It was also quite cold with recent snow still in the shades.

Our accommodation for the night was a lovely Agritourismo just short of Acri. It was 2klm up/down a dirt track which would have been very tricky in the wet on the Guzzi 1200 Sport being no lightweight and shod with road tyres.

Day 07

Friday 19/04/19 – Ride Day: Acri to Matera 240klms

There was snow on the eastern mountains as we were greeted to a beautiful clear crisp morning. After the usual high carb breakfast we were on the road with a long and windy descent to the coast. Not a lot of sand on these beaches.

It had been suggested that we savoir a Panini at Craco which is a ghost town. The old town was abandoned due to natural disasters, which has made Craco a tourist attraction and a popular filming location.

We’d noticed a town very high up as we moved inland and up the valley. Norma was expressing concerns that ‘we won’t be going up there will we’, I was pretty sure we wouldn’t; I was wrong. As it turned out it was a good ride with terrific views out across the valley.  The panini was delicious.

A straight run up the valley to Matera was looking good. We’d passed a little sign quite a bit further back that needless to say was in Italian, so I’m guessing it must have said Bridge Down, Road Closed, Seek Alternative Route. Which would have been OK except for the fact that we only had about 25klm of fuel left so going back around was out of the question.

What to do, when old mate local turns up. No problemo, follow me. Yeah right. He’s in a 4×4 and we’re on a fully loaded pig of a road bike and even he’s slowed to a crawl as we follow down one of the roughest roads I’ve ridden even on an Adventure bike with long patches of standing muddy water and deeply eroded channels in the rocky surface. At least there was no sand, and not a sound from Norma on the back as we negotiated the 10klms to a sharp left onto a narrow potholed strip of tar, then straight up the hill to the hilltop town of Pisticci that I’d previously assured Norma, cross my heart, we’d be going nowhere near. Old Mate came through and we were extremely thankful but it had been a heck of an experience, especially for Norma sitting on the back, what a legend even though her side of the story is a little extreme IMHO.

Fueled up and washed the bike with a few admirers watching on. Onto Matera.

Day 08

Saturday 20/04/19 – Lay Day: Matera

Matera  is a  city, famous for the Sassi ancient cave dwellings and its World Heritage Listed system of underground water cisterns. It is also where Mel Gibson’s ‘Passion Of The Christ’ was filmed.

We did what we normally do.

Needless to say we were just two of thousands of people crowding the ancient walkways. In the 1950s, the people that lived in these caverns and habitats were transferred to modern quarters while the Sassi underwent complex restoration works, the objective of which was to return them to their original beauty. It doesn’t appear to be working all that well. But it is very fascinating and beautiful.

We lined up for the queue for the tour of the main water cistern, 8pm tonight along 50 other people. No thanks. By chance we came across the only place where you can descend into the system. And we were the only ones there. Admittedly it’s nowhere near as impressive as the other but for €6 we weren’t unhappy.

So that’s the end of week two which has had its ups and downs quite literally, but the sun is shining. Tomorrow we head south.

Week 2 – Travelers In Italy – Part 1

Sunday 07/04/19 to Saturday 13/04/19

Civitavecchia – Amalfi – Messina – Cefalu – Agrigento

Sunday 07/04/19 – Ride Day: Civitavecchia  to Amalfi

Our first day of riding on this journey.

First thing after a typical B&B breakfast was a quick walk along the waterfront of  Civitavecchia. We’d not had a chance to see anything last night as we’d got in 5 hours late then got lost after the army blocked our Tom Tom route. There wasn’t a lot to see see but the view from the front of our B&B was rather pleasant.


We then kitted up and rode an easy 20klm south to Castello Santa Marinella –  https://maps.app.goo.gl/Qsptj where we met up with Evan and the lovely Danila who we’d met last trip on the ferry from Dubrovnik, Croatia to Bari, Italy.

One must always make exceptions when it comes to choosing ones friends, and the fact that Evan rides BMW’s biggest and baddest GS, and that he delights in bagging all things Moto Guzzi (he is Italian after all), in no way detracts from the fact that he is a wonderful man, though just how Danila puts up with him I have no idea.

So after a pleasant hour we hit the Autostrada for 300klm going south to the Amalfi Coast, all very easy – pay the toll and dodge the cars that meander across the centerline as they drive at 130k/hr. We left the Autostrada and entered the world of twists, turns, honks and cutoffs, the ups downs and narrow streets of what TomTom deemed was the best road to Amalfi. Turns out it was right but it was a hilarious experience with magnificent views of the famous Mt Vasuvius back over our shoulders as we climbed up and up, and then went down down to the coast. Pity there was no place to stop to take pictures.

We found our hotel for the next 3 nights and then it was time for me to follow Luigi the Crazy on his little scooter as he raced 1klm up the hill to where the Guzzi would be securely parked. I didn’t even try to keep up, but the thought did occur to me that I wouldn’t be walking back down. Watching these guys defy death as they ride flat out through traffic, overtaking on corners and just generally owning the road is one thing, sitting on the back while they’re doing it is an entirely different thing all together. It’s flipping crazy. Norma still hasn’t stopped laughing.

Day 01

Monday 08/04/19 – Lay Day: Tourists In Amalfi

That’s it, that’s what we did. We wandered every laneway we could find as we found  our way to the top of town.

Amalfi is essentially a town that is crammed into a narrow valley with vertical walls on either side, and like all of these old European towns it is a labyrinth of alleyways and lanes and dwellings stacked on top of each other in no particular order at all.

We stopped for coffee, and just a little cake, and did a call with the Adelaide Blackmores who were on their way to Parent / Teacher interviews. We then continued our wanderings.

Then the sun came out.

We went out and blew €60 to celebrate the fact that we were here. The meal wasn’t worth it, but the company I kept certainly was.

Tuesday 09/04/19 – Lay Day: Sorrento and Positano

We caught the early bus for Sorrento via Positano. Now the trip’s a mere 50klms but it took 2 hours, and not because we were in a large bus, but because the roads are really narrow and really twisty and everyone has right of way. I’d defy anyone to do it any quicker, except Crazy Luigi and probably my old mate  Hans on his Ninja 🤣

Once again we wandered.

We had a rest over coffee and a little cake, then we wandered some more through the old town with its leather and shoe shops everywhere, only outnumbered by the restaurants.

That’s Vesuvius way out there. We caught a fast boat to Positano

where we celebrated with coffee and 2 pieces of cake in a beach front cafe. It had been Norma’s desire to visit Positano and everyone has seen the wonderful pictures. Well it’s nothing like the pics you see without the morning sun shining on it and then enhanced to the nth degree. Note the GI contrast.

Norma was a little disappointed but we both agreed it was well worth the effort to eat cake and drink coffee in Positano.


We wandered a little and caught a not so fast boat back to Amalfi. We are of the humble opinion that Amalfi is the more likeable place. We cooked fresh pasta with corn and prosciutto in a lovely creamy mushroom sauce on our balcony as it got dark on our final night of what had been a much anticipated milestone of the journey of 2019.


Wednesday 10/04/19 – Ride & Ferry:  Amalfi to Salerno to Messina

Hardly a day to write home about. We got drenched on the 25klm 1hr ride to Salerno where we discovered the world’s filthiest toilets, made even harder to accept by the fact the staff had the key to the other toilets. Ain’t going back there, bye bye!

We arrived in Messina around 11pm and found our way to our lovely B&B – highlight of the day.

Thursday 11/04/19 – Ride Day: Messina to Cefalu via Mt Etna

After the usual B&B breakfast we were on our way. We’d donned our wets today, just in case. We rode south on the freeway then hung a right at Fiumefreddo and a left at Mt Etna who looked gorgeous in her fresh white snow.


Did a U turn and hung a left at the bottom then followed the SS120 to Cesaro where we took the SS289 over the mountains to the coast. Both truly delightful rides with perfect road conditions and endless twistys with the odd hairpin thrown in. It was a good thing we’d worn wets, not because it rained, but because the temperature dropped to 6c  going over the tops where there were lots of wild boar rooting around for truffles I dare say.

And so down to the coast where we took a left at Acquedolci and hugged the coast all the way to Cefalu. It started to rain when we were 10klms out 🤤. We booked into our lovely hotel and rested after a great day’s ride.

Day 02

Friday 12/04/19 – Lay Day: Cefalu

Considered to be one of Italy’s top places of interest, Cefalu is another town with its old town.  Wandered with the rest.

There’s something about these places that I love. There are hidden alleys, paths and laneways everywhere, and all need to be explored and absorbed even if, as the voice behind me cautions “They might be private” But they’re not, they’re intriguing.

Another delightful day ducking showers, enjoying the occasional sunshine and thanking God for the opportunity and a cautious wife who’ll take a chance.

Saturday 13/04/19 – Ride Day: Cefalu to Agrigento via Palermo

Today threatened varying amounts of dampness, which it followed through with but never in real earnest.

Started our day with the usual B&B breakfast then, once on the road heading west, a tussle with a fuel pump wanted my card but didn’t want to give me fuel in return – I won in the end.

At the suggestion of friends Dave and Zoe, we dropped by Palermo’s Cattedrale di Monreale, https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wyuq9 – it was closed 😁 but well worth the views. Took a couple of pics and pinched one from GI.

It was drizzling as we headed for the south coast and seeing as Corleone was pretty much on the route so we took the opportunity to ride through it; well you would wouldn’t you. Well I wouldn’t again. The roads around there are pretty bad with a number of dirt sections and many rough sections where the ground has moved. We also got lost up a dead end street where we half expected the boys to emerge – nothing personal you understand, just business.

We continued south. The countryside was very green but there was no livestock anywhere. We stopped for coffee in an olive grove beside the road with much agriculture happening behind and the village way up on the ridge line, as were many we passed.

The southern coast came into view and we detoured through a couple of seaside towns before arriving at our digs in Agrigento which were on the 12th  and top floor of an apartment block with magnificent views out over the ocean and the Greek temple ruins that Agrigento is famous for and we’d passed on our way into town. Looking back from our balcony was the old town from a totally different angle than we normally see old towns from.

We had a rest after a decent days travelling of 240klms.

Day 03

We then had a little wander, as you do, and had really good hamburgers for dinner.

So that’s the first real week of our journey, and we’re still in love 😀



Italy Bound

Friday 05/04/19

We’re on our way. Finally got the call at 3.30pm to pick the bike up at 4.30pm and be out of the warehouse by 5.00pm. All of which we achieved.

Now sitting in the ferry terminal waiting to board – oh yes, sorry about this, but it’s late. Gotta laugh eh. But never mind, we’re on our way and life is good. See you in Italy.


Week 1 – Tourists In Spain

Friday 29/03/19 to Thursday 04/04/19

Barcelona – Andorra – Madrid – Valencia – Barcelona

Friday 29/03/19 – Barcelona

After a long flight from Melbourne via Doha we landed in Barcelona at 1430 local, caught the shuttle into Placa de Catalunya, city center. We battled our way through the tourist throng to our Hostal Lausanne where we were confronted with the world’s smallest hotel room, BUT it had an en-suite, and it was right in the center of town, which are our two main criteria for accommodation. And it was cheap-ish which is another criteria seeing as we’ll doing something like 55 stops on this adventure.

Below is a pic taken from 40,000 feet over the French, Italian, Swiss Alps. We’ll be riding through there at the end of June.


After squeezing ourselves into our room we did what tourists do, we wandered aimlessly around town. Mainly the old area of town. Took a few pics.

Saturday 30/03/19 – Barcelona & Andorra

Today was to be a busy day. We started out with what appears to be the standard Spanish breakfast of coffee with a small baguette and prosciutto or a variation on that theme.

We then met Matthias, our personal guide around the old Gothic quarter of Barcelona – https://www.excursionsbarcelona.com  @Excursions Barcelona

Matthias was a wealth of information and we thoroughly enjoyed our 2 1/2 hour wander.

Then it was off to the capital of Andorra which is the sixth smallest nation in Europe with a population of around 80,000 people. It’s only a little over 1000m above sea level but it was pretty cold and there was snow on the surrounding hills. It too was full of tourists.

Sunday 31/03/19 – Andorra la Vella

Again we did what tourists do, wandered around and took pictures. It’s a very pretty place and also duty free, hence it’s attraction to tourists. So what’s the attraction of the cured legs of pig in the pic? Couple of things: they’re everywhere, literally. They must kill billions of pigs in these parts. And secondly, they’re like only A$100 each. Next to them were a couple set up that you could slice what you wanted off – with a really sharp knife. Just sitting there, imagine that at Coles.

In the late afternoon we followed an old bloke up a path which went up and up for ever, all the way to the scree line, where there was a great path. This path contoured along the mountain slope overlooking the town and below it were lots of little garden plots hanging on the cliff face and tendered by fore mentioned old blokes. It gave us a great view over the city.

Monday 01/04/19 – To Madrid

Bus (small) to Llieda, then fast train to Madrid via Zaragoza. Madrid is crazy busy to people like us from Melbourne, which by comparison is pretty slow. It’s also full of beggars which is quite unpleasant. Our walking tour guide informed me that, except for the obviously homeless people, they were all transported into the city daily by the local mafia who dragged them over from mainly Romania – they certainly didn’t look Spanish. That’s an EU thing.

Tuesday 02/04/19 – In Madrid

We did the tourist thing again. Our tour guide was very good and informed me that Norma and I were ‘travelers’ and not tourists, which was very reassuring. 🙂

Now I appreciate that I’m not captioning these pics. For a couple of reasons. One is I can’t remember exactly what they’re of, well I could if I wanted to, but I don’t want to, because two, it would take way to long and all this takes lots of time as it is.

More pics of our walk through Madrid’s old town.

Having said that, I must burble a little about these next pics of Restavrante Botin which is reportedly the oldest restaurant in the world having opened in 1725 which is indeed old. However that’s not its only claim to fame; apparently it’s also famous for its baby suckling pig and lamb, and they are tiny. And it’s also mostly underground.

We saw the modernist Cathedral and the Royal Palace. We’re standing under a strawberry tree.

as well as a few other things.

And that was Madrid done.

Wednesday 04/04/19 – To Barcelona via Valencia

Another long day of public transport.  A fast train to Valencia. I guess not so fast by some standards but 298k/h is still pretty quick.

The countryside is quite diverse with arable land at a premium and then in small lots, perhaps from 2 to 5 acres a piece which has just been sown for summer crops.

We wandered around Valencia for 3 hours

then went to the train station only to find our train to Barcelona had been delayed by an hour.

We arrived in Barcelona at 930pm in the rain – apparently for the first time in 6 weeks.

Thursday 05/04/19 – Barcelona

We did a lot of walking today, everywhere and anywhere. You never really tier of discovering new lane-ways in Barcelona’s Gothic and Raval areas and then wandering the waterfront region with its beach of Saharan sand.

And so we wait for tomorrow when we find out if we can pick our bike up – or not. It was originally supposed to land last week, then it was delayed in Singapore and supposed to land yesterday which was delayed until today. I haven’t heard if it arrived today, and even if it did it’ll be a tight thing to be able to pick it up tomorrow. The only thing on our side is that our ferry for Italy doesn’t sail until midnight. If we’re not on it it’ll mean the loss of quite a lot of dollars and quite a bit of time. We’ll see won’t we.

Stay tuned.

For the latest detailed map:
Google Drive https://tinyurl.com/LarryTrip19 or